Talk:Maltese language

• Hi! Please consider visiting the Wikipedia:Malta-related topics notice board. (should this be in a little box or something?) Srl 05:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I sorted out the classification in the infobox. Maltese was listed under Arabic language, which would have implied it to be a dialect, when really, it comes under Arabic languages (a language family). I am hoping no one is disputing the factuality of this?

I also removed the Maghrebi Arabic label, since:

1. Maghrebi Arabic is a variety or the Arabic language - which Maltese is not. Maltese is an Arabic language, not an Arabic one (which would have rendered it a dialect if it was).
2. No reliable linguists classify it under Maghrebi.
3. I was the one who added it to the article in the first place: - incorrectly.

mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm disputing it, as I explained just now at Arabic languages. You're mixing up two different things: status as a language vs. lineage. The 'family' part of the infobox covers lineage. By lineage, Maltese is a descent of Siculo-Arabic, which was a dialect of Maghrebi Arabic, which was a variety of the Arabic macrolanguage, which is one of two branches of the Arabic languages. Your edits make the contrary claim that Maltese is a third branch of the Arabic languages, which is incorrect.

Yes, of course Maltese is a separate language from Arabic. I don't think anyone disputes that. It is mutually unintelligible, ethnically distinct, and neither the Maltese nor the Arabs (AFAIK) claim Maltese as a dialect of Arabic. However, this has nothing to do with its lineage, which clearly is Arabic.

I'm not wedded to "Maghrebi" particularly, but I think we do need to show that Maltese is a descendant of Arabic, and not a sister language. kwami (talk) 19:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me put this in perspective for you. English came from Norse. However, when it developed into a separate language, it stopped being classified as Norse, and became a "Germanic language".

The same with Maltese. It's ancestor came from Arabic, but when Maltese became its own language and lost mutual intelligibility, it then came to be classified as an Arabic language - not an Arabic dialect.

There are also no sources to back up that it is Maghrebi either. mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

English does not come from Norse. Norse influenced its lexicon and grammar, playing a role more like Sicilian than Arabic in the case of Maltese.

The sources are at Siculo-Arabic. kwami (talk) 19:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If they're there I'm sure you won't mind quoting them? mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

("It is descended from Maghrebi Arabic but has borrowed heavily from Italian"). ("the oldest layer of Maltese has been closely related to the pre-Hilalian type of urban Maghrebi"). Singer, Hans-Rudolf (1980) “Das Westarabische oder Maghribinische” in Wolfdietrich Fischer and Otto Jastrow (eds.) Handbuch der arabischen Dialekte. Martine Haak, Rudolf Erik de Jong, C. H. M. Versteegh (2004) Approaches to Arabic Dialects. Norman A. Stillman (1988) The Language and Culture of the Jews of Sefrou, Morocco. However, there are others who restrict the term "Maghrebi" to the varieties of Arabic which remained in North Africa, so it's to some extent a matter of definition. kwami (talk) 19:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

We have been through this a thousand times before. Maltese is genetically descended from ARABIC, not from the putative ancestor of an "Arabic language family". This whole attempt to separate Maltese from its Arabic roots is utterly unjustified and ridiculous. Show your sources that Maltese is somehow a sister language to Arabic and the entry at "Arabic languages" would be justified. Otherwise, Maltese should fall under Varieties of Arabic (as it does). (Taivo (talk) 19:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC))

Excuse me? How have I tried to imply Maltese is not Arabic? I am the one arguing that it is an Arabic language. Read the conversation next time. mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:58, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I did read the conversation and you are trying to remove Maltese from "Arabic" and place it as a sister of Arabic in a family called "Arabic languages" which includes Ancient North Arabic. That implies that Maltese is a sister to Arabic and Ancient North Arabic, not a descendant of Arabic and a "nephew" of Ancient North Arabic. Kwami is 100% correct in his corrections to your assertions. We have been over this time and time again. (Taivo (talk) 20:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC))

No, that is like saying that French is now seen as a sister to Latin because it is classed as a "Romance language". mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Latin is not a Romance language, so classifying French as Romance does not make it a sister to Latin. You really need to read some of this stuff before you use it to argue your point. kwami (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I agree with Taivo and Kwami. Maltese has Maghrebi origines. Kwami has already added several sources about it, I could add more. Second, the comparison with French and Latin is wrong. If both French and Latin would both be classed as Romance languages Mingeyqla would be right, but they are not. Latin is an Italic language, not a Romance language. In fact, Mingeyqla's example shows the opposite. For French, we've got Latin -> Romance -> French and for Maltese we've got Arabic -> Maghrebi Arabic -> Maltese. Rather simplified, but the fact remains that French is Romance and Latin is not. And Maltese is Maghrebi.JdeJ (talk) 20:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Oy. And here was I, thinking 2009 would bring some peace. Dancing around the Arabic issue (as distasteful as it is to some editors) doesn't do anything for the article's integrity. Though saying 'Maltese is Maghrebi' is rather silly.. Maltese is Maltese ^^ the roof of this court is too high to be yours (talk) 21:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Neither Kwami nor I are tied to the Maghrebi connection. Personally, I think that the distinction between Maghrebi and Masriqi is probably a bit more recent than the separation of Siculo-Arabic from Arabic, but I'm not a specialist in that body of data. (Taivo (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC))

I've just read this article and also the maltese version of it. For me it's clear that Maltese is a Maghrebi Arabic although I am not an expert. I am Moroccan and it was easy for me to undersatnd nearly 70% of a text written in maltese (after reading the alphabet of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.140.41.236 (talk) 21:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Maltese has more in common with Lebanese varieties if anything. Maybe you're Lebanese and don't even know it. Lol? LoL. Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 00:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

No it has not, if anything, the Arabic variety most closely related to Maltese is Tunisian Arabic. Just look at verb conjugation in Tunisian Arabic. I know it is not enough of a proof, but it should be enough to set the facts straight since the most distinctive thing about the varieties of Arabic is the verb conjugation of each variety. 192.108.115.2 (talk) 02:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no special knowledge on this subject, but I am wondering whether there is an agenda behind distancing Maltese from Arabic. Just from 'general knowledge' (coming from the UK) I was under the impression that Maltese was a variety of Arabic, albeit influenced by Italian (i.e. Sicilian). I've noticed that in a number of articles Maltese is curiously labelled as "Semitic" and the "A" word is studiously avoided. Then I read this thread....What's the scoop? I'm just curious more than anything. DeCausa (talk) 22:57, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Some of the arguments here are incorrect, especially the claim that Maltese and Arabic are mutually unintelligible. Indeed the italian and english loans are incompatible with Arabic, but when it comes to the arabic words Maltese is mutually intelligble with Maghrebi. Indeed Il_Cantilena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_Cantilena) is astonishingly intelligible for a maghrebi, while maybe not so for a mashreqi. Kind regards, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.72.181.199 (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

In the alphabet table, the Approximate English pronunciation of the letter Z is given as: "pizza; when doubled may change to lots."

Everyone I know here in the US pronounces the zz in pizza exactly like the ts in lots. Maybe someone who knows Maltese and English can come up with a better example for English speakers of how the pronunciation of zz differs from z in Maltese.--Jim10701 (talk) 23:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I usually hear "pizza" with /ts/ as well. This page gives "pads" as an English example of something approximating [d͡z].

Also, if Maltese r is trilled this should be mentioned in the pronunciation guide, and "law" for [o] may only work for certain varieties of English (e.g. Received Pronunciation). Lfh (talk) 17:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

A common issue in many articles but I wonder about the "Spoken in" list at the top. Certainly I have no trouble believing that there are significant groups of speakers in all of these countries but, IMHO, it is misleading to include so many nations where the language has no real status, even unofficially. I believe that such lists should be restricted to locations where the language has a very large community that uses it as a first language (very large meaning something more than a couple of small neighborhoods buried in major cities). For example, one can say that German is a language of Switzerland and Italy, but calling it a language of these United States, for example, would be misleading despite the fact that there are many German speakers in the U.S. and in the early 20th century there actually were large German-speaking communities.

--Mcorazao (talk) 20:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your concern. Unfortunately, the primary source for "spoken in" data is often Ethnologue or national census data. Nearly every language in the world with more than 10000 speakers could list the United States, for example. It is, I agree, quite silly to see fifty flags (not even just a list of names, but the darn national flags as well) flying next to a language of only 100,000 speakers who have relatives throughout the world. But try to trim those needless flags away or trim that list of countries and watch the nationalistic fervor burn bright! (Taivo (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2010 (UTC))

Is it necessarily a "nationalistic" perspective that colours such reactions? I'd be interested to see that claim substantiated, because for all the problems nationalism causes on Wiki, it seems the main fuel behind much maintenance over loads of projects/articles. An interesting tightrope to walk, and a situation not particularly helped by being smug. Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Experience in other articles is a hard teacher. Nationalistic insistence in these language templates in my experience generally involves 1) exaggerated population figures (that usually include either the entire ethnic population or all the potential L2 speakers in the world); 2) the pretty flags (just because they're pretty); and 3) the presence or (even) absence of a language in a given country (no matter how small the immigrant community is). I've been involved recently with an Armenian national who insists that there are no Azerbaijani speakers in Armenia even though there reliable references to the contrary. Nationalism definitely has a valid place in the world, but it's not always helpful or accurate. Would you be willing to remove the US and Canadian flags here because that's not the "native home" of Maltese? (Taivo (talk) 14:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC))

The listings just represent other countries where Maltese people speak Maltese, and are documented as doing so. Canadian initiatives (working with the EU to promote Maltese amongst Maltese communities) are attested to. I don't see why you're hostile to that being represented. Or do you just object to "pretty flags", and if so, are you anti-pretty, contra-flags, or both? Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 15:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You misunderstand this discussion, I fear. Mcorazao made the comment that (s)he thinks that the language template should list only countries where the language is "native", that is, the homeland for the language. I happen to agree with that. No one said that there aren't documented Maltese speakers in the US and Canada. No argument there. The point is simply about the function of and philosophy behind the list of countries in the language template. Yes, I think that the use of flags in the list of countries is silly. I guarantee that the majority of people will recognize the word "Chad" in a list of names ages before they would recognize its flag in a parade of flags. Why are they in the language template? Because they are "pretty" and people like pretty colors in things. (Taivo (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC))

Meh. Is there any use cluttering this talkpage with what you'd 'rather' the standards be? Surely there's a better venue for such suggestions, somewhere where your proposed changes might actually be approved and implemented. As things are, nothing here will change. And as one of the people who quite likes a little colour in life, I reject the implication that such an appreciation (through national flags!) is silly. A little more civility is in order. Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 16:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think anything could change even if a discussion were started and approved. And I was being civil. Being uncivil would call people who use flags "stupid". I don't think they're stupid at all. The "practice" (not the people) is silly because it really serves no purpose in an encyclopedia. I was definitely not calling you silly. Some reasonably intelligent people like color in needless places, some people think it's silly. If you want to delete this whole thread from this Talk page, that's fine by me because you're right, it's not directly germane to the article's topic. (Taivo (talk) 18:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC))

Maltese letter: o

• long, like aw in law: sod (IPA: ɔ) - sod means "solid" (it comes from Italian sodo: IPA: 'sɔdo)
• short, like o in got: bott (IPA: ɒ) - bott means "box" (it comes from French boîte or from Sicilian buatta)

Source: http://www.aboutmalta.com/language/maltesegrammar.htm

Other sources:

• Pronunciation of "law": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/law (IPA: lɔ)
• Pronunciation of "got": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/got (IPA: gɒt)
• Pronunciation of "got" (especially in formal contexts, in Brittish English anyway) (IPA: gɔt)

Best regards

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarvaturi (talk • contribs) 11:56, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

{{edit semi-protected}} please change QALP to QALB please change KELP to KELB

86.26.187.254 (talk) 22:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

 Spain Can you please explain the reason for this change? Those appear to the be standard modern Arabic spellings, not the Maltese spelling. If, however, that info is out of date or incorrect, please explain. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The article includes both Żammit, with its Malto-Polish zed, and Zammit. Varlaam (talk) 16:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't find info on this in the article, but it would sure be interesting to see. FunkMonk (talk) 03:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

At the time of the Arabic conquest? Presumably an early Romance language (and perhaps Greek by some), since Punic is exceedingly unlikely to have survived into the 9th century. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:58, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. Perhaps this should be mentioned, if it is discussed in any sources? FunkMonk (talk) 00:51, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what the sources say, if anything; my idea that Romance and Greek were spoken on Malta in the 9th century is just an educated guess (judging from the history and parallels in other regions formerly in the Roman Empire, especially nearby regions). Malta and History of Malta don't say anything about the linguistic history directly, and perhaps nothing is known because no evidence is known to exist that could be used to infer anything about the vernacular language back then, let alone direct statements by contemporaneans. Sorry for not being more helpful, I'd love to know more about this issue myself. After all, the idea of Punic influence on Maltese has apparently seen quite some discussion in the literature, but I haven't seen any comments by scholars on the reconstructible linguistic situation at the time of the Arabic conquest, which is, after all, crucial to the question. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Phoenician language states: "Phoenician ... was also spoken in the area of Phoenician colonization along the coasts of the South-Western Mediterranean, including, notably, those of modern Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria, as well as Malta, the west of Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica and southernmost Spain." Dan ☺ 13:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I've seen that. As Punic language explains, the Cippi of Melqart are the best indication we have that Punic (the Carthaginian form of Phoenician) was indeed spoken on Malta at some point, as expected for historical reasons anyway.

I can even offer a conjecture as to what kind of Romance was spoken on Malta. As explained in Romance languages#Proposed divisions and Romance languages#Stressed vowels, there is a subgroup of Romance, sometimes called Southern Romance, where Latin vowel quantities were lost by a merger of corresponding long and short vowels, incidentally just as in Greek from the 2nd century BC on (this development is first attested in Egypt). (The vowel merger in other Romance languages is less straightforward.) The most familiar member of this group is Sardinian. While modern Corsican (which includes some dialect groups spoken in northern Sardinia) is derived from the speech of Tuscany (presumably specifically the medieval dialect of Pisa) and thus much more closely related to Standard Italian than to Sardinian, the popular speech in Corsica in the early medieval period seems to have been much more like Sardinian and appears to have influenced Corsican in the form of a substratum. Literature written in Roman Africa and Romance loanwords in Berber suggest that African Romance merged the Latin long and short vowels in the same way. Intriguingly, a group of dialects spoken in the area along the border of Calabria and Basilicata, according to Heinrich Lausberg, appears to display the same vowel merger, and in his honour, the region is known as the Lausberg Zone. As far as I know, word-final -t is preserved in the region, as well, like in Sardinian, and unlike neighbouring Italian dialects. While Sicilian (which is not only spoken on the island of Sicily, but also on the neighbouring mainland) must have gone through a phase where its vowel system was like the system characterising the more usual Italian dialects as well as the Western Romance languages (where short i merged with long e and short u with long o), Sicilian vowel system mentions texts (though their geographic origin is not given) which exhibit the Sardinian-type merger, just like the Lausberg Zone dialects of Southern Italy. There are other peculiar features (such as retroflex dd in words where Latin has ll, and words apparently borrowed from an unattested language which must have been spoken in the general region in antiquity) which Sardinian and Sicilian have in common typologically (i. e., superficially), and which suggest a common non-Indo-European substratum, but more immediately the explanation which suggests itself is that a language strongly resembling Sardinian was spoken in southernmost Italy and Sicily in medieval times (just like in Corsica), and which was subsequently ousted by a language more like Neapolitan (Southern Italian), which in some ways (such as the vowel system, in particular) was much more like Standard Italian, and the interaction of which with the Sardinian-type language resulted in modern Sicilian, explaining the confusing state of affairs.

In light of the fact that Malta lies exactly in between Sardinia, Calabria/Sicily and the region which comprises the ancient Roman province of Africa, the core region of the part of the Roman Empire which was situated on the continent of Africa (apart from Egypt), as this was the former heart of the Carthaginian Republic, and that Malta shared the Punic and Greek (recall what I said about Greek in Egypt) influences of the whole Africa-Sardinia-Corsica-Sicily region, the most suggestive and attractive conjecture that we can make about the dialect of Romance formerly spoken on Malta is that it resembled Sardinian a great deal (medieval Sardinian in particular). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:38, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Speculation is rife. Florian suggests an early Romance (or late Latin?) language, with some Greek. Dan suggests some dialect/descendant of Phoenician. Maltese itself is most closely related to the urban north African dialects of Arabic, coincidentally the regions that were colonised by the Phoenicians. The history of Malta between the fall of the West Roman Empire and conquest by Arabs is very sparsely documented. I'm not even entirely sure it was continuously populated during that period.

The "Late Roman" language was almost certainly a descendant of Latin, similar to a Sardinian/Sicilian/South Italian dialect. The island may or may not have been depopulated during the 1st millennium, and then either repopulated or conquered by one or more waves of Arabs, presumably from North Africa, explaining the linguistic relationship to that region. The idea of Maltese being a direct descendant of Phoenician without a north African intermediary is improbable, as there is no evidence I know of that an Arabic-like language existed there during the Roman period. Rhialto (talk) 12:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I haven't seen anyone above claim Maltese to be a descendant of Phoenician. But if someone were to claim that, it wouldn't be "improbable", but "impossible". Maltese is definitely derived from Arabic. Whether there was an Afro-Asiatic substrate is another question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.201.22.180 (talk) 08:11, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Interesting article: http://malta.academia.edu/MarioCassar/Papers/99102/Vestiges_of_Arabic_Nomencalture_in_Maltese_Surnames