Talk:Muhammad Ali

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cassius Marcellus Clay which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:01, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr.; January 17, 1942 – June 3, 2016) was an American professional boxer and activist widely regarded as one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time and a significant cultural icon. Nicknamed "The Greatest" and "The People's Champion", he was the first fighter to win the world heavyweight championship on three separate occasions, accumulating a professional record of 56 wins and five losses. His career was defined by historic bouts such as "The Fight of the Century" against Joe Frazier, "The Rumble in the Jungle" against George Foreman, and "The Thrilla in Manila".

Beyond the ring, Ali was a controversial and prominent figure during the Civil Rights Movement. He converted to the Nation of Islam (later transitioning to Sunni Islam) and changed his name, denouncing his birth name as a "slave name". In 1967, citing his religious beliefs and opposition to the Vietnam War, he famously refused military induction, stating, "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong". He was stripped of his titles and banned from boxing for nearly four years at the peak of his career; his conviction for draft evasion was unanimously overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1971. Ali's outspokenness on race, religion, and politics made him a symbol of conviction and a global humanitarian up until his death in 2016 from septic shock. Supbro2057 (talk) 16:43, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. GOAT Bones231012 (talk) 17:13, 9 December 2025 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the "Later Life" section, I believe this is a worthwhile change:

This better reflects the given source which explictly mentions the noteworthy Swados and does not say that she or her partner were fans of Ali. ~2026-17721-76 (talk) 23:51, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

I have to confess that I don't see how this particular anecdote is relevant. I'm considering simply removing it altogether. Day Creature (talk) 09:39, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

I would also support the paragraph's removal over what currently exists. I think it is trying to evidence a shift in Ali's social views later in life, which would be valuable to include if supported, but Hauser says in the source that he doesn't know how Ali's views evolved. ~2026-17721-76 (talk) 20:07, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

I have removed it. Day Creature (talk) 22:49, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

The redirect Mhd Ali has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2026 May 11 § Mhd Ali until a consensus is reached. 𝔅𝔦𝔰-𝔖𝔢𝔯𝔧𝔢𝔱𝔞? 20:27, 11 May 2026 (UTC)

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There has been recent changes made to this article surrounding the use of Ali's slave name when describing him when he was young. His chosen name should be used in these sections because it is the standard on Wikipedia to refer to people by their chosen name (even if they aren't trans, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan). (also sorry if this is all phrased weirdly, I'm new to editing Wikipedia) PeanutButterSandwich2 (talk) 23:32, 24 May 2026 (UTC)

Ali was named Cassius Marcellus Clay after an abolitionist. Describing that as a 'slave name' seems odd, to say the least. And given that Ali began his boxing career under that name, it seems reasonable enough to use it when referring to his early career. For the record, we sometimes do that same for trans people, if they have been a significant subject of public attention prior to their change of name. On the whole, this is the way biographies tend to be written elsewhere too, since doing otherwise leads to all sorts of anachronisms, and has nothing to do with slavery, racism, or anything else beyond accuracy and following the sources we cite. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:51, 24 May 2026 (UTC)

Ali was named Cassius Marcellus Clay after an abolitionist. Describing that as a 'slave name' seems odd, to say the least. And yet, Ali himself has described it this way and our article does discuss this. More broadly, this terminology is used by and in reference to other African Americans who have changed their names whether or not the description is strictly accurate. That's not to say there is no merit to the rest of your argument, but I wouldn't dismiss the 'slave name' concern on a technicality. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 20:23, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

For this page especially, Muhammed Ali is the common name (as well as preferred name), so we should use that Scooglers (talk) 00:36, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

His name, Muhammad Ali, is used for periods when he used that. The bottom line is this is the subject's standard name change from the name he was given by his parents. He was Clay when he started fighting, and Ali starting in 1964. the Stefen 𝕋ower 02:12, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

I describe it as a "slave name" because that is how Ali described it. I think it can lead to confusion because of using multiple different names to refer to the same person in the same article, but you do make some good point. PeanutButterSandwich2 (talk) 03:32, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

Another example is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Page#Early_life who is referred to by he/him pronouns after he came to prominence, but before he came out as trans. At these points the article links to sources that use she/her pronouns for him which I think is a similar thing to this discussion. PeanutButterSandwich2 (talk) 03:43, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

There is a related discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography § Inconsistent Handling of Chosen Names “Slave Names” —Bagumba (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

A complicating factor for this subject is that Ali was world-famous under his given name (or slave name as you put it). He was named Clay for the Olympics and Clay when he first defeated Sonny Liston. We cannot erase posters, descriptions, etc. from this earlier period of his fame. Ultimately we do not want to confuse the reader by calling him Ali plainly when the sources from the earlier times are saying Clay. If we're going to call him Ali throughout, he have to connect to the earlier sources somehow, and saying things like "Ali while still named Clay" is clunky. the Stefen 𝕋ower 02:33, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

You could say the same about Elliot Page. Many sources from earlier times refer to him as her, yet the article describes Page with he/him pronouns throughout, including early life. Finlandestonia (talk) 11:29, 25 May 2026 (UTC)

I wouldn't say they are the same. One's gender is in one's mind, and therefore it makes sense to show them as their realized gender all along. For Ali, he fully voluntarily decided (the key part) on a change in his religion and name, after being world-famous as Clay. At any rate, the bottom line for me is that we don't lose readers new to the subject because they see sources and images showing 'Clay' while we say merely 'Ali' in the text. the Stefen 𝕋ower 05:55, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Gender is not actually static though, so you can't say a person's current gender was as it always was. Enfyslemle (talk) 06:04, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

@StefenTower Respectfully, why does that matter? If someone has changed their name for any reason, that should be respected and reflected by the Wikipedia, except in only exceptional circumstances. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:50, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

I have decided to not respond to anything else in this thread, as I am not a party to the edit conflict. In my view, I have already completely explained my position anyway. the Stefen 𝕋ower 00:54, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

@StefenTower As fellow Wikipedia editors, we are allowed to respond to each other's claims when there is disagreement. You saying "I don't wanna play anymore" doesn't change that. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:57, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

You have a right to respond, of course, but I have zero obligation to participate further. the Stefen 𝕋ower 01:03, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

If you want out, just stop making comments. Even this comment is further participation. Enfyslemle (talk) 05:07, 1 June 2026 (UTC)

Would it not be less confusing for readers if the article correctly uses the name Ali gave himself throughout the entire article? The article is extremely clunky if it used the same name throughout the entire article. Readers aren't idiots, they know Ali changed his name and thus old posters will have his slave name. The fact that he changed his name is literally in the first paragraph of the article. Readers aren't idiots and it's extremely disrespectful for the article to continue using a name that he disavowed. ~2026-32430-77 (talk) 22:09, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

Elliot Page is an instructive comparison (though there may be better examples). Both were/are well-known using their birth name and used it professionally before the name change. Page did not change his last name, which provides an easy solution to just use that throughout most of the article. The name 'Ellen' does appear a few places, for example under character and episode titles under Elliot Page § Filmography and in a couple explanatory notes. Ali changed every part of his name, so we don't have such a straightforward solution. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2026 (UTC)

A more apt example might be Hailey Bieber who was in the news as Hailey Baldwin before marriage and her last name is still written as Bieber throughout. Enfyslemle (talk) 05:14, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

They don't write Bieber, while named Baldwin. They just say Bieber even for her as a child before marriage. Enfyslemle (talk) 05:16, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

That's a maiden name, which I don't believe correlates well here. Ali was internationally famous as Clay as I stated above, and we need to correlate that for the reader somehow. the Stefen 𝕋ower 05:49, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Hailey was famous as a Baldwin and the family Baldwin family is famous. Look at the citations, she was having articles written about her as a Baldwin. Why does that not have to correlate to readers? Enfyslemle (talk) 06:01, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. the Stefen 𝕋ower 06:02, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

[Bieber] was internationally famous as [Baldwin] as I stated above, and we need to correlate that for the reader somehow. Enfyslemle (talk) 06:05, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

You are saying that because there were pictures of Ali with the caption Clay that it would be confusing to not call him Clay. There are publications about Bieber cited as Baldwin, so why would it confuse readers here, but not there. Enfyslemle (talk) 06:06, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

At any rate, the bottom line for me is that we don't lose readers new to the subject because they see sources and images showing 'Baldwin' while we say merely 'Bieber' in the text. Enfyslemle (talk) 06:07, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

In either case, we should ensure in prose that the reader is not lost on who we are referring to per the context. But in the case of a maiden name to married name conversion, that is very common and readers may tend to be less potentially confused. the Stefen 𝕋ower 06:08, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Changing your maiden name is still a choice and there are people who still get referred to on wikipedia by their maiden name even after marriage. I guess Wikipedia does have the convention to go with whatever name is most known and not honor how a person wanted to be known. An example for that is Marie Curie, who would have preferred to be known by Skłodowska Curie. The reason people say that we need to keep just Curie is because that is how she is commonly referred to. The name Cassius Clay to refer to Ali is considered a trivia/fun fact, but the average person doesn't actually know that name. His contemporaries might have known the name, but that doesn't make it current common parlance when talking about him. And to say that well people will be confused if they see something about Cassius Clay, we are not removing the name entirely. It will still be referranced in literally the first line of the article and will still be the wikipedia redirect. Enfyslemle (talk) 06:18, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

As editors we must take care that readers don't lose their place, and merely mentioning Clay in the first line isn't quite enough. We will need to maintain connecting cues. It is the right thing to do in the face of the imagery and the sourcing of the earlier times. We are not just writing for today - you must consider how people were seen by their contemporaries - that is how history is written. the Stefen 𝕋ower 06:26, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

As editors we must take care that readers don't lose their place, and merely mentioning Clay in the first line isn't quite enough. We will need to maintain connecting cues. This is true, but there are multiple ways to handle this, as well as multiple possible sources of confusion or irritation for readers. The concept of name changes is not foreign to people. If Jane Doe changed her name to Jane Smith at age 25 and we write Smith graduated at age 18 most readers will not be confused. Where relevant, we can default to the most familiar name but clarify when a name was changed or which name the subject used at a particular point in time. Prince (musician) § 1991–1996: Name change, Diamonds and Pearls and The Gold Experience and the article section that follows provides a good example of how to do this. Some readers may find it jarring, confusing, or distracting that we use different names throughout the article. Readers may jump directly to a section in the middle of the article, either via the table of contents or by clicking a link to a section. Although the name Cassius Clay is widely known, there will be readers who are unfamiliar with it. Those readers may be confused when they start reading about Clay instead of Ali. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 14:50, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

This reflects a misunderstanding of my position. I have never said we cannot call him Ali all along. Just that we maintain a few cues so that the reader understands he was Clay during major events of his earlier career. We should respect Ali and not lose the reader, at the same time. This is a repeat of what I've been saying, but since you are maintaining wiki composure, I just repeated it, hopefully for final clarity. Now, I'm really bowing out of this discussion. I'm too busy with other things to dwell on this. the Stefen 𝕋ower 11:20, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

Then how is that different from maiden to married last names? Why don't readers need that to not lose their place? Enfyslemle (talk) 06:30, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

I have already addressed that. It's clear we're going in circles. Nothing else left to say, from where I'm standing. the Stefen 𝕋ower 06:31, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

So woman get to lose apart of their history once they are married? Enfyslemle (talk) 06:35, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. I say let's end this here. the Stefen 𝕋ower 06:37, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

@StefenTower You know exactly what this kind editor is talking about. The double-standard of allowing trans people and women to be referred to by their chosen name in their articles, but not Black people, is frankly very silly. Reflect on the connotations that your argument implies. Why do trans people and women deserve the right to change their name, but not Black people? Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:56, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

I would advise to not treat this page as a political forum. This has nothing to do with Ali being Black. I am anti-racist and see Ali as a personal hero. I have already made my points above. I am not repeating them. the Stefen 𝕋ower 11:13, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

@StefenTower I was not attempting to treat this page as a political forum. I stumbled across this page by chance without knowing about the prior website-wide discussions beforehand. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 19:46, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

From my perspective you are using the argument of treating this like a political forum to ignore the real point that Royz-vi is making. The policy being used here is actively inconsistent with Wikipedia. Why should this specific instance be given an exception. If you want to argue that this should be the standard here is my response. You mention how calling him Muhammad Ali before he adopted that name might confuse the reader however from my personal experience reading Wikipedia articles this has never confused me. For example, when I was reading the article on Piet Mondrian I could understand that he born with the last name Mondriaan and later changed it. I don't see how using their preferred name throughout and only mentioning their original name in a single line would confuse the reader. Having two different names for the same person in one article is more likely to confuse the reader. Ljfshdalsdhf (talk) 22:32, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

Hi. Just my two cents, I think they keep bringing up the same point cause you didn't really give a satisfactory answer. AhsukaTano (talk) 10:17, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

I have nothing else to say. Some editors here are treating this as a political forum, and will never be satisified, by all appearances. I have been as clear as I know how to be. the Stefen 𝕋ower 11:12, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

Names are political though. And people will be satisfied with a good answer/ proposal rather than name calling.

For trans people, we never use the deadname even if there is a surname change and the person had significance before the name change. The questioning is valid because there is 0 consistency. Do not dismiss good arguments for "non-political" reasons. Byulharangforlife (talk) 23:35, 31 May 2026 (UTC)

Anti-racism implies willingness to interrogate structural bias and willingness to adapt to new information, not being "color-blind" to the fact that Ali is Black. The personal is political, and there are very few things as personal as names. Enfyslemle (talk) 05:25, 1 June 2026 (UTC)

Cutting to the heart of the question, my opinion is: be clear once in the lead and once in the body of the article that he changed his name from Clay to Ali, and otherwise just use Ali except where it would be inaccurate (e.g. changing a quote mentioning Clay). As it stands, we flip flop between them to the detriment of understanding. There are multiple paragraphs that alternate between Clay and Ali as though they are two different people -- evidence that the split serves neither writer nor reader. We don't need a change to the MOS to form a local consensus that this is a unique case worth addressing on its own merits. Because Ali was asked so frequently and so prominently about his name, and his opinions on the matter were so clear, and because his birth name was used specifically to harass/troll him for years, if there is a single case that merits an exception to existing rules, this is it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:37, 1 June 2026 (UTC)

I don't think this is a unique case. Ali's opinions on the matter belong in the article, but don't influence how the article is written. We follow the MOS and reliable sources.-- Jahalive (talk) 19:45, 1 June 2026 (UTC)

I guess the other example of people who famously changed their name is Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam, but he has not completely disavowed his former name. Sinéad O'Connor/Shuhada' Sadaqat also never completely abandoned her birth name. Both of these articles swap back and forth between names depending on context. I think married and maiden names are also just inconsistent throughout wikipedia articles, with some switching before and after marriage vs some just sticking with married names throughout. I am not sure if this really is a pattern of specifically denigrating black people (I am very willing to concede to being false on this if I can see more data). It almost seems like the pattern is religious name changes that need to be further interrogated (knowing there are also questions about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's name). Are there any other famous people, religious or not, who were famous before and also after they chose a new last name (first name is less important because wikipedia refers to people by their last name in the body of the text)? In the end, this comes down to historiography and whether or not someone's wishes should affect how we write history, which is a dissertation level question. Like I pointed out earlier, even people like Maria Skłodowska-Curie or Emma/Emily Stone are not necessarily addressed how they want to be. Enfyslemle (talk) 04:30, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Nevermind, I just found the link to the page: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Inconsistent Handling of Chosen Names “Slave Names” , so ignore my last comment. Enfyslemle (talk) 04:40, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

I stood corrected. Enfyslemle (talk) 04:45, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree we should standardize the default usage of "Ali" throughout. Reliable sources and the subject's personal preference both support this. We can continue to mention the name in use at a particular time where relevant and helpful. —Myceteae‍🌈 (talk) 18:41, 2 June 2026 (UTC)

Do we have any analyses of how contemporary reliable sources handle this question? Someone above suggested matching the naming to how sourcing at the time knew him – I think that's the wrong approach. I also think we shouldn't be getting into the murky waters of editorial discretion unless we have to. We should be first and foremost trying to understand how the best contemporary reliable sources are referring to Muhammad Ali throughout his life, and if that answer isn't clear or acceptable, only then should we be bringing up these finer points. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:01, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

And I just want to be crystal-clear here: This is very likely to be a neutral point of view issue, not a Manual of Style issue. Reliable sources are not treating this as an idle stylistic issue – we are not talking about aesthetics or precision, as we do when we talk about the length of dashes or whether the "p" in "president" is capitalized. This is fundamentally a substantive issue about control over the narrative of Muhammad Ali's life, so if there is a consensus of the best contemporary reliable sources that Muhammad Ali's name change should be considered retroactive, that carries the force of NPOV, which supersedes the MoS 101 times out of 100. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:13, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree that there are NPOV implications but it is also an MOS question. Many style guides, including ours, include guidance on using names or terminology preferred by individuals and groups of people and address other usage questions that may reflect a POV. —Myceteae‍🌈 (talk) 15:32, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Why does the article spend so much time referring to Ali by a name he made very clear he rejected? The notorious"Say my name" incident makes that more than clear

He is far more famous under the name Muhammad Ali than Cassius Clay but more importantly in my eyes would be the precedent set by how trans people are referred to in their articles.

In Caitlyn Jenner's article does it refer to her as Bruce until she came out as trans? No it refers to her as Caitlyn throughout.

If I suggested that Elliot Page's article should refer to him by his birth name until it describes when he came out I'd be told no.

Why then when black people reject white names is their choice not respected? Is it not as valid to reject the identity of Cassius Clay as it is to reject Bruce Jenner?

To be clear I think it is correct that trans people get their chosen name in their articles I just think that anyone rejecting an old name should be given the same treatment Ghaithsunqur (talk) 21:02, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Clarification, I feel that the name Clay should be removed except where absolutely necessary. I understand fights before his name change should maybe be referred to by Clay vs Whoever but they aren't people, they're events. The man himself should be referred to strictly as Ali Ghaithsunqur (talk) 21:05, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Apologies my phone cropped the previous discussion from my screen and janked out. My topic should not exist, please close Ghaithsunqur (talk) 21:07, 4 June 2026 (UTC)