Talk:David Lammy

Polling

• Option A. He should be described as a politician because that is his primary occupation and the occupation for which he is notable. He should be described as British for the following reasons:
  1. Describing him as an English politician is potentially misleading. Readers may think he is some sort of regional or nationalist politician.
  2. His own sense of Englishness is not central to his notability and does need to be mentioned in the lead. It should be discussed in the "Personal life" section.
  3. This is generally the policy that is followed in relation to other politicians from the United Kingdom. For example, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond (regional/nationalist politicians from Scotland) are described as Scottish politicians, but Gordon Brown and Douglas Alexander (national politicians from Scotland) are described as British politicians.
  Khiikiat (talk) 11:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A For consistency with every single other national politician in the UK. Lammy is the only current Westminster MP to be singled out as an "English politician". He is the British foreign secretary, not the English foreign secretary. Why this has needed multiple RfCs is frankly ridiculous. AusLondonder (talk) 12:10, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  WP:OTHERCONTENT and WP:UKNATIONALS both state against changing information for purely the sake of consistancy Bejakyo (talk) 09:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option A - for the reasons stated. I concur that this should not be an issue, really. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:36, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Procedural close (Summoned by bot) as this was only discussed seven months ago at Talk:David_Lammy/Archive_2#RfC_on_David_Lammy and absolutely nothing has changed since then.
  • If this RFC proceeds then here is my copy and paste my argument from the previous discussion: British per MOS:CITIZEN and per the balance of WP:RS. TarnishedPath^talk 12:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Regarding a possible procedural close, please note that on 13 October 2024 Chetsford (the administrator who closed the previous RfC) stated: "As a general observation, without either encouraging or discouraging this, I'd note that it's very reasonable to open a new RfC if the previous one closed as no consensus." See Talk:David Lammy#"English politician". Khiikiat (talk) 13:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  The previous one (as is clearly evidence in the link I provided) did not close as no consensus. There was a clear consensus for a specific outcome. As far as I can tell, absolutely nothing has changed since then. TarnishedPath^talk 14:09, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Apologies, I've just gone back and reread the close another time and it was no-consensus. TarnishedPath^talk 14:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option B - As my attempt to head off this RFC has failed, and we're going to do the same thing as we did a few months ago. But I guess we go for another bite of the apple.
  There is no confusion or misleading going on. If he was a butcher he would be an English butcher, noone is confused by this it is just simply how language works. Language is not a logic puzzle and Wikipedia doesn't have to be written in some legalese. The common understanding is obvious and noone has ever reported that they don't understand what is meant by the statement 'English Politician'. Further if he had been a member of the European parliament he would still be described as English, not European just because of how that relates to his occupation.
  Per WP:UKNATIONALS it is perfectly acceptable to use English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish instead of British. In fact there are situations where following MOS:CITIZEN rather than using one of the other labels could be considered offensive. There is no argument that all British citizens must be labelled British.
  The idea that all politicians in Britain must be labelled British because they are involved in British politics is fallacious. British MPs do not have to be British, they do not have to hold British citizenship, they do not have to be born in Britain. If someone from Ireland who did not hold British citizenship was elected an MP it would be inappropriate to call them a British politician. So there is no argument that all MPs must be labelled British.
  Consistency is a nice to have but is not mandated, it's an argument to WP:OTHERCONTENT.
  The lead sentence already states that Lammy is the foreign secretary of the United Kingdom. I don't see why that needs to change, unless he must be the British foreign secretary of the United Kingdom.
  Lammy has self identified as English, as shown by the sources in the article and the other already mentioned in the prior RFC and discussions. I don't see any reason to muddy this with unnecessary complications. Another recent article on Lammy self identifying as English is this Times article, "[The far-right] has forgotten about what it means to be English: the north star of our values is tolerance and our beautiful country is held together by a constellation of values it has rejected."
  Not one new argument has been presented, so this just going over the same ground as the prior RFC. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think the only real arguments is are the weight of sources, which could go either way, and self identification that clearly goes one way. I'd argue the weight of sources show that English should be used, but I'd respect arguements to the opposite. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:36, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  "Per WP:UKNATIONALS it is perfectly acceptable" UKNATIONALS is an essay. An essay, which represents the opinion of the last person to edit it, is not a veto vehicle for a community-decided guideline like MOS:CITIZEN. Chetsford (talk) 20:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Nor does it stop any self-identifying individual being described as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. - SchroCat (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  They're free to self-identify however they want. Wikipedia, however, will describe them using its guidelines (e.g. MOS:CITIZEN) until such time as new guidelines are adopted. Chetsford (talk) 20:11, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) As I've pointed out: MOS:CITIZEN does not "stop any self-identifying individual being described as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish" - and for the sake of clarity, that means on WP too. - SchroCat (talk) 20:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  And neither does MOS:CITIZEN say that British must be used. As stated labelling all British citizens as British would cause offence in some instances, part of the issue that UKNATIONALS tries to resolve. It's also the most minor of my points. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:11, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  It seems a lot of answers rely on "British parliament must mean British", without noting (per my comment above) that you don't have to be British to be a member of the British parliament. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  On the issue of MOS:CITIZEN and it not always being appropriate to force citizenship over identity there was an RFC about using Catalan rather than Spanish. With the result that those article now generally use Catalan rather than Spanish, so there is no citizenship must be used consensus in general. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Strongly Option B for the reasons listed by ActivelyDisintrested. While WP:UKNATIONALS is "only" an essay and not official wikipedia policy, it's pretty clearly the most linked essay on the topic, and the most reputable and widely followed thing in absense of an offiical wikipedia policy. Stating that he's Foreign Sec of the United Kingdom is already pleanty clear to which soverign country's politics he is involved in Bejakyo (talk) 09:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• I don't really see an issue with either, if he's English he's necessarily British too, no? And if you want to keep it British for consistencies sake then so be it.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:24, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  WP:OTHERCONTENT and WP:UKNATIONALS both state against changing information for purely the sake of consistancy Bejakyo (talk) 09:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option B. I'll repeat what I said last time: "English, largely on the basis of STATUS QUO. The MOS accepts either form (see WP:UKNATIONALS), Lammy self-identifies as both and the sources refer to him as both. Given there is no other way to split it, leave it alone. We have other members of the UK cabinet described as Welsh (Jo Stevens) and Scottish (Ian Murray (Scottish politician)): there's no reason why "English" should not be given the same status if someone self-identifies that way. - SchroCat (talk) 14:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A per consistency, precedence and reliable sources describe him as a British politician, so it's weird that Wikipedia would be the outlier and choose not to describe a British politician as a British politician. , , , , , , , , , . Isaidnoway (talk) 14:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option B per SchroCat and my reasoning in the last RFC. Opening this up 6 months later when nothing has changed is kind of a waste of time. Most of the editors supporting using British that have cited reliable sources have seemingly ignored the fact that the reliable sources in England call him English. That's all I need to to know. I wouldn't cite the Hindu Times over the New York Times on matters related to the United States. Nemov (talk) 14:49, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  "the reliable sources in England call him English" Except for The Guardian , the BBC , The Independent , The Economist , etc. Chetsford (talk) 13:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't say "all" reliable sources and as noted below several of those have called him English as well. Can you please stop WP:BLUDGEONING? Nemov (talk) 14:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  No worries, Nemov! I'm aware you didn't say "all" - it was just a GF addendum to clarify that you probably meant "some RS call him English" and not "all". Thanks! "as noted below several of those have called him English as well" By several do you mean The Guardian? I wasn't able to find any others from that group (The Economist, BBC, The Independent, The Guardian) below so just want to clarify. Thanks, as always! Chetsford (talk) 16:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option A per Khiikiat, AusLondonder, Isaidnoway. He is a national politician with responsibility for the whole United Kingdom, represents a party covering the whole of Great Britain, does not advocate for English nationalism or similar and is described as British in the majority of reliable sources. Thryduulf (talk) 15:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A For all the resons described above - mainly consistency. From Rishi Sunak to Peter Mandelson we say "British politician" Could say "British Labour Party politician" but that isn't the point at issue here.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 15:55, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A MOS:CITIZEN directs we identify persons in situations like this by their nation of citizenship while MOS:ID suggests we use identity terms that predominate among WP:RS. Lammy is (apparently ) a dual citizen of Guyana and Britain, but he is not a citizen of England as England is a geographic area that does not grant citizenship (similarly, we don't call Joe Biden "a Delawarean" or a "Western Hemispherian" even though both may be true).
  Ergo, under CITIZEN we must call him either "British", "Guyanese" or "British-Guyanese". To determine which of those three, we then apply WP:ID to find which is most widely used by RS. Based on my cursory examination, a great many sources refer to him as "British" but few or none call him "Guyanese" or "British-Guyanese" (see examples, below).

Insofar as occupation, "politician" is that for which he is best known. Chetsford (talk) 16:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

See WP:UKNATIONALS, which sinks pretty much all your argument. Lammy self-identifies as English (and British too), which means we can describe him as English, just as we describe his cabinet colleagues Jo Stevens and Ian Murray as Welsh and Scottish, respectively.

Many of the sources you provide are not British, which means it's pointless to try and use them: the ignorance of non-UK journalists on the subject is absolutely no basis on which to determine an Englishman's nationality. For further details on Lammy's self-determination as English:

- SchroCat (talk) 19:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"See WP:UKNATIONALS" UKNATIONALS is an essay and doesn't represent anything other than opinion of the last person to edit it. MOS:CITIZEN and MOS:ID are guidelines of EnWiki, adopted by consensus of the community, and are to be normally followed.
"Many of the sources you provide are not British" Many of the readers of EnWiki are not British. Chetsford (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) So you want to base your opinion on the ignorance of people who just don't understand things properly? (The Biden argument a good example of a complete lack of understanding of the subject - this had to be explained at great length in the last RfC too). Self-determination is a thing in the UK, where it is entirely possible for people to be Welsh, Scottish, English and Irish (as well as Cornish, Manx and a few others): we take people's own self-determination into account, regardless of the complete ignorance shown by non-UK journalists.{{It's clear that not all readers of EnWiki are British (no-one is even remotely claiming otherwise, but it may be a chance to educate them in things, which is one point of an encyclopaedia. And MOS:CITIZEN isn't as cast iron an argument as you want it to be. It certainly doesn't stop people from being described in the opening sentence as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. - SchroCat (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"your opinion" You spelled "Wikipedia guideline" wrong. Chetsford (talk) 20:06, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I really didn't. I'm sorry you don't understand the make up of the UK, or the factors in which people will call themselves one thing over another, but that's obviously something you're not willing to address. - SchroCat (talk) 20:10, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"that's obviously something you're not willing to address" Correct. I'm here only to apply WP policies and guidelines, not to negotiate the internal social idiosyncrasies and nomenclature sensibilities of any specific locality. Chetsford (talk) 20:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Again, you're not really understanding the MOS terribly well here, particularly given it's already inherently flexible to some groups. There is nothing in MOS:CITIZEN that stops Lammy being described as English, nor of others being described as Welsh, Scottish or Irish. "this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident". He is a permanent resident of the country of England and self-describes as English. I'm not sure why there isn't a problem with people being described as Welsh, Irish or Scottish, but there seems to be with English. - SchroCat (talk) 20:17, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

He is also a permanent resident of the country called United Kingdom and self-describes as British, this proves nothing either way. Some people are most appropriately described as British, some people are most appropriately described as being English/Welsh/etc. Which is most appropriate for one person has no bearing on which is most appropriate for another person. I have not investigated how the people referred to elsewhere in this discussion should be described, but it is possible that some or all of those cited as being described as Welsh/Scottish/etc would be more appropriately described as British (or vice versa), but this is not relevant for how David Lammy should be described (this is similar to why WP:OTHERSTUFF is a almost always a bad argument in a deletion discussion). Thryduulf (talk) 21:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m not basing my argument on OTHERSTUFF, but it appears there is a double standard being applied to someone who more often than not self-identifies as English. He has complained that when completing the census, he is forced to choose Black British, rather than his personal choice of Black English, which speaks volumes as to his thoughts in the matter. - SchroCat (talk) 01:14, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

"He has complained that when completing the census, he is forced to choose Black British, rather than his personal choice of Black English" He may well have a valid complaint. Whether he does or not, however, is out of scope for this discussion. We're not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. We are a perfect reflection of an imperfect reality. And the reality is, RS call him British. Chetsford (talk) 03:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

RS call him English, particularly when the ignorant ones are ignored. No-one is talking about rightgreatwrongs: he is English (and British), and self-identifies as such. How crass do we have to be to ignore self-determination and go outside the scope of MOS:CITIZEN for petty reasons? - SchroCat (talk) 03:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The standard you argue for, that only UK sources be accepted as reliable on this question, is not one bedded in policy. TarnishedPath^talk 00:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I never claimed it was, but why base something on the ignorance of writers? - SchroCat (talk) 01:14, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

You've made a blanket statement about non-UK journalists being ignorant of UK affairs and while I might have some sympathy for the position that a lot of US based journalists try to frame everything to fit their worldview (last RFC we had a US based editor who repeatedly claimed that the relationship between England and the UK was synonymous with the relationship between California and the United States despite multiple other editors telling them repeatedly that England was a country, not a state) your suggestion that we completely disregard none-UK sources without any sort of analysis is not how we do things. TarnishedPath^talk 01:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Please don't even try to patronise me with comments about 'how we do things', but if you rely on ignorant sources, you get ignorant articles. It's exactly why UKNATIONALS says "non-UK media can make simplistic (and erroneous) assumptions about UK citizens". Unfortunately too many people outside the UK don't readily grasp the concept either, thus the strawmen arguments about not calling Biden "a Delawarean" and similar misguided comparisons. - SchroCat (talk) 03:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

As an essay (WP:UKNATIONALS) will never trump a MOS. If you are going to stick with RS from outside the UK not being reliable for statements about the nationality of UK nationals then you've going to need something stronger than an essay. TarnishedPath^talk 03:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

And as stated many times before MOS: CITIZEN doesn't say he must be called British. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Given that from what I've seen the weight of RS seems to be more on the side of describing Lammy as British, I'd think that would have an influence on our reading of MOS:CITIZEN. TarnishedPath^talk 10:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd disagree on the weight of RS, but agree that it would effect how MOS:CITIZEN should be read. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option A - He's British & serves in the UK Parliament. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A per MOS:FIRSTBIO which says the first sentence should include 3. Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable. It was him being a member of the British parliament that gave him his notability. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:35, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A I myself have heard Lammy refer to himself as 'English', but I've also heard him refer to himself as a Londoner and as a 'Tottenham boy'. There are layers of identification but there is nothing about him or how RS refer to him that disputes his 'Britishness' and much that confirms it. There are no strong reasons here to deviate from the normal practice of referring to him by his citizenship, especially since he is Foreign Secretary of the UK!Pincrete (talk) 05:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A. MOS:CITIZEN is being used as a guideline for why British is appropriate, but MOS:CITIZEN contains a footnote that reads There is no categorical preference between describing a person as British rather than as English, Scottish, or Welsh. Decisions on which label to use should be determined through discussions and consensus. The label must not be changed arbitrarily. To come to a consensus, editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject, particularly UK reliable sources, and whether the subject has a preferred nationality by which they identify. While Lammy does identify himself as English, he also says he's black British and proud of it . I do not think it can be said that he strongly prefers being described as English when he's also described himself as British. While I am aware social media isn't a reliable source, they are multiple instances demonstrating him referring to himself as British. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 11:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A. For consistency with every single other British MP, and absent any consistent rejection "British" in RS. Sources go both ways, as they do for all British/English politicians, with a majority seeming to use "British". Can't see why he'd be a unique case. Void if removed (talk) 14:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A per my reasoning above under "English politician". ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A per Pincrete. Cremastra — talk — c 20:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option B per above. ~ HAL333 (VOTE!) 15:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option B per ActivelyDisinterested, given that one can be British but not necessarily English. "British" includes English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish. MOS:CITIZEN also notes whether the subject has a preferred nationality by which they identify which seems to be English according to sourcing. Per MOS:FIRST it should also reflect sourcing on him being a lawyer, but not before his most notable role (politician). Symphony Regalia (talk) 01:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A per Khiikiat, AusLondonder, Isaidnoway et al and the good reasoning put forward by them.Halbared (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• David Lammy is an English politician and lawyer who has served as Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom since July 2024. That covers all four: English, British, politician and lawyer. The options the OP gives are less inclusive/encompassing. Moreover, Lammy has a strong preference for "English" (or "Black English") as per here, here, here and here. As per policy, we should usually default to the subject's own designation when it comes to British national identities. Lewisguile (talk) 10:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  As I say below where you bullet-listed those sources, what you say is not supported by them. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Pinging @Firefangledfeathers, @Erzan, @DanielRigal, @Pincrete, @Tewdar, @Nemov, @AusLondonder, @Spy-cicle, @GoodDay, @Enderandpeter, @Dronebogus, @Ortizesp, @SchroCat and @Redrose64 as editors involved in the previous RFC at Talk:David_Lammy/Archive_2#RfC_on_David_Lammy. TarnishedPath^talk 14:18, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  I have castigated some people harshly for changing English to British before but that is only because those people (Maybe it was only one person with sockpuppets?) were on an openly racist spree of changing English/Scottish/Welsh to British for non-white politicians only. I'm actually pretty neutral on the matter so long as there is none of that bullshit going on. I think we should have a consistent standard style for all UK politicians and I don't have any strong preference between English/Welsh/Scottish and British. If our policy was "British except where the subject has made it clear that they prefer otherwise" then I'd be OK with that but it should be documented somewhere to make it official. DanielRigal (talk) 17:18, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Lammy has a strong preference for English:

  • https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-lammy-lbc-african-caribbean-english-b1824029.html
  • https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-lammy-black-english-census-b1895736.html
  • https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2021/03/david-lammy-has-shown-what-it-truly-means-be-english
  • https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-praise-of-david-lammy/

  One of the reasons he gives for this is because of the exact kind of people you describe. Lewisguile (talk) 10:53, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  You are misrepresenting those sources. They (the three I can access) all discuss the same incident on LBC, triggered by options on the census and a woman challenging him about the possibility of being "Black English".

  • In the first one he says "I’m black, I’m English, I’m British and I’m proud". He never states his preference.
  • In the second he is commenting on the lack of a "Black English" option in the census, he never says he would self-identify as that.
  • In the third the principle of allowing "Black English" is again mentioned, but it does not say what Lammy's preference is.
  • The fourth I cannot access.

  -- DeFacto (talk). 14:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  I take your point that he isn't explicitly saying he only wants to be identified as English, but can you see how arguing for him to only be identified as British is still contrary to his wishes? That's exactly what he says he doesn't want.

  It's obvious to me both that he's saying he wants to be recognised as "English" (he can be both English and British, of course), and that he doesn't want to be considered just "British" (since that may imply he can't be English as well). Ultimately, I voted for the status quo because it has all four of the things mentioned in the RfC anyway (Englishness, Britishness, being a politician and being a lawyer). But if there's only one we can use, "English" seems like the obvious preference.

  The balance of the RSes also indicates Englishness is more commonly used than Britishness:

  • ...also being English
  • I’m black, I’m English, I’m British and I’m proud
  • I’m of African descent, African-Caribbean descent but I am English.
  • Jean, took aim at the MP describing himself as English
  • ...the truth is there’s a myth there’s one English ethnicity, there’s not... for me, the fact that I was born here and the fact that my sensibilities are English mean I want to claim that heritage as well.
  • Don’t ever tell me I’m ‘not English’
  • He also questioned why, having just completed the Census form, he could not tick a box saying he was black and English.
  • Labour MP David Lammy has criticised the lack of a “Black English” option in this year’s census, after discovering respondents are given the option of choosing “White English” as their ethnic group.
  • Why can’t I describe myself or my children as English on our census form? Black British yes, English no. You can be White English but you can’t be Black English...
  • Why can’t I be both Black Caribbean & English when I was born in London?
  • Why can’t my kids be both mixed Black & White and English (their mother was born in Northampton)? Since when do you need to be White to be English?
  • The entire NS article is essentially making the case that Lammy is English
  • The Spectator article is doing much the same, but going further to make him a "true Englishman".

  Lewisguile (talk) 17:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  Not at all. What's clear to me from all those is that he is arguing that "Black English" is just as valid as "White English" and should be an option. None of those sources support the case that he should be described as English rather than as British. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• @SchroCat status quo is not a policy based argument. TarnishedPath^talk 14:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Sources describe him as both; he self-identifies as both. There's no policy-based way of splitting the difference. - SchroCat (talk) 14:41, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes there is. Which term is used more in reliable sources? TarnishedPath^talk 14:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm really not bothered enough for a back and forth on this, but the ignorance of journalists on the question is neither here nor there. We have cabinet ministers described as Scottish and Welsh based on self-identification, so there is no bar to Lammy being described as such, given he was identified as such (and also as British). It's a question with no correct answer, which is why STATUSQUO is as good a way as any of settling the point. - SchroCat (talk) 14:50, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

• Are non-UK RS unqualified to report on UK nationality? This is an ... interesting ... argument that keeps resurfacing above. I'm inclined to believe it might be better made at WP:RSN. Until that happens, I'm personally not comfortable in simply ignoring RS because someone on WP said the UK is such a complex society that it is beyond the comprehension of anyone other than Ollie from Mansfield calling into TalkSport. Chetsford (talk) 03:54, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  What on earth are you on about? No-one has said it's complex (it's not: it's very simple, and just because you have decided not to want to accept it, doesn't make it complex). I'm going to withdraw from this now, as the last comment comes across purely as trolling, and you are unwilling to either take into account what the stronger sources on the argument have to say. Lammy has self-identified as English on numerous occasions, as do many people in England, just as many in Wales, Scotland and Ireland identify as Welsh, Scottish and Irish. I'm sorry you don't seem to be able to grasp that, but I suspect it's because you are being deliberately obtuse on the whole point, for whatever trite reasons of your own. - SchroCat (talk) 04:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, an individual's preferences for their BLP do not trump our policies and guidelines. See the case of Richard Desmond. Chetsford (talk) 04:14, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Pornographer is not a nationality, even if it were, this argument would be WP:OTHERCONTENT Bejakyo (talk) 09:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  And "English" is not a form of MOS:CITIZENship. Chetsford (talk) 10:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  your argument was referencing a pornographer, not MOS:CITIZEN.

  Aditionally "this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident" of which English certainly fits, with this MOS not at all conflicting with UK:NATIONAL

  Finally, is needlessly facetious claim that non-UK sources are banned. Per UK:NATIONAL, while non-UK sources can be useful, they are often much less aware of how nationality in the UK than UK sources, and that UK sources are much more reliable on nationality than non-UK sources Bejakyo (talk) 10:55, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  "Per UK:NATIONAL, while non-UK sources can be useful ..." Per WP:ESSAY, UKNATIONAL is just something some guy wrote. It's not policy, it's not a guideline, it doesn't represent the view of the community. Chetsford (talk) 10:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  WP:Essay is an essay, meaning it's just something some guy wrote. It's not policy, it's not a guideline, it doesn't represent the view of the community. additonally WP:Essay recomends against citing itself in this fashion. Bejakyo (talk) 11:26, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  "WP:Essay is an essay" WP:ESSAY is a WP:SUPPLEMENTAL page. However, though your observation may be technically wrong, the spirit of it seems to be an acknowledgment that essays (i.e. UKNATIONAL) are non-citable. Appreciate the discussion! Chetsford (talk) 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  WP:UKNATIONALS is a WP:SUPPLEMENTAL page. As such spirit of your argument seems to be an acknowledgment that supplimental pages (i.e. ESSAY) are citable. Subsequently thank you for your agreement with the arguments of option B, and the natural conclusion of this specific thread. Bejakyo (talk) 11:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  "WP:UKNATIONALS is a WP:SUPPLEMENTAL page" Incorrect. Chetsford (talk) 11:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment couldn’t this problem be side stepped by separating "English" from "politician". He is an Englishman and a politician. Tinynanorobots (talk) 13:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I have put forward several ways of doing this, but their is a determination to remove the description of Lammy being English from the article. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:19, 2 November 2024 (UTC)