In relation to the above discussion, in the interests of moving forward to a resolution, I believe there are three options on the table:
- Option A: Leave article in its current form as those with current academic discussion of superpower potential. This comes with the benefit of being shorter while providing detail for candidate countries but leaves a lot of potential for "content creep" that needs to be kept in check.
- Option B: Introduce new section on historical polities that have been discussed being potential superpowers but no longer exist/are considered superpowers (along with moving the article to a new title accordingly). Would resolve the issues around Japan but any cut off for countries that could be considered would be arbitrary and hard to justify (i.e. "why not insert historical empire here).
- Option C: Remove the discussion around candidate countries, reduce to simply a short section on what a potential superpower is, and merge into Superpower article. Probably the most drastic option but means no content creep issue and avoids the problem of "my country is big, I want on list".
Tagging @Maxeto0910, @Dimadick, @Archives908, and @Barjimoa as you've all contributed thus far. Rambling Rambler (talk) 01:11, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'll start off. I'd go with Option A as my preferred option but despite discussion above I don't have a problem with Option B if that was subject to consensus, but I would personally view it as dependent on a move to a suitable new article title to articulate the change in format as crucial. Both have drawbacks but would be I think defendable if done right. Rambling Rambler (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- I suggest an Option D: Having countries which are currently explicitly described or have in the past been explicitly described as a "potential superpower" in the first place; see my last comment in the previous thread for details. This would effectively remove all vagueness, arbitrary requirements for inclusion and room for speculation, and therefore seems to be the most stringent option, and Japan would be the only country to add to this article which I know of.—-Maxeto0910 (talk) 03:41, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Option B: Wikipedia articles do not have to reflect only the current situation of any topic, and typically provide a historical overview. And I don't see any benefit in having shorter articles. Dimadick (talk) 10:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Option B has my preference. I do not think the article needs to be renamed, but the introduction has to be changed a bit (mainly the last lines). To avoid the 'please add my favorite Persian, Roman, Ottoman, Mongol, Spanish, Inca' empire discussion we might want to make explicit that the term superpower was first used after WWII and that there are hence no contemporary sources for any empires pre-1945 that use the term superpower. All 3 options are fine with me. I do not understand how option D is different from option B. Arnoutf (talk) 12:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Restore to status quo before your removal of the Japan section. Rambling Rambler: you did not obtain consensus before removing the Japan section, and as far as I can see, multiple editors oppose your changes while none support them. The article should be restored to its earlier state. intforce (talk) 15:45, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- I removed the Japan section because, like every other section prior to my edits, it was a mess that had become WP:INDISCRIMINATE where despite supposedly being a section about a country not considered a potential superpower it was instead trying argue how in fact it is a superpower candidate. If you read the above discussions there are actually multiple viewpoints on if and how Japan should be included. Consensus was not reached on both those points, and WP:ONUS requires consensus be established for inclusion (not removal), which has yet to be established. Rambling Rambler (talk) 18:08, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Restore to status quo- I also support this. The section was very well sourced, and, while not mandatory, it would probably have been wise to propose your suggestion(s) on talk first. Per WP:BRD, your "Bold" edit appears to have been reverted/restored by Ashwinragu, yet you persistently restored your preferred version of the article- in contradiction to the guidelines of BRD. I think the most logical course of action would be to restore the last stable version of the article (which would also hopefully stop further edit warring) until a final resolution has been agreed to here. Archives908 (talk) 02:32, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Archives908 as above, the section while sourced was WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Despite supposedly being about former consideration of Japan's superpower status (which was in the 1980s-1990s) it was instead talking about current media reporting regarding the popularity of anime/manga, a statement about its technological innovation that is sourced with an ad for Tokyo University, and changes to deployment rules for the JSDF from the 2010s, none of which factor into the actual topic of discussion.
- Per WP:ONUS, consensus must be established for inclusion, and disputed content shouldn't be included until discussion over what to potentially re-introduce is over. The edits made by the user in question happened during said discussion.
- As per WP:BRD, "BRD is never a reason for reverting. Unless the reversion is supported by policies, guidelines or common sense, the reversion is not part of BRD cycle.". During attempted discussion with the user in question they didn't cite any of these things, so given discussion was going on here there was no reason to revert (during which they explicitly said "besides, you and me talking back and forth will not build consensus") so their repeated attempts to revert didn't speak of being interested in any attempt to better fit a Japan section if at all. Rambling Rambler (talk) 18:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- That does not give either of you a free pass to WP:EDITWAR.
- In regards to the content, I support Option D as proposed by Maxeto0910. IMO, there is no need for a title change and certainly no need to overcomplicate this. Establishing some clarification on the inclusion criteria and some minor tweaks if Japan were to be re-included is ample enough. In regards to this debate, I am not vested enough in it to continue so please no more pings! Good luck everyone. Archives908 (talk) 19:52, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- Let's discuss the proposal to work towards a future consensus as proposed by Rambling Rambler in this thread. Whether we have to go back to a previous situation or work from the current situation is not the topic here.
- In my view option B (which I support) does justice to the fact that Japan was considered potential superpower, but also does justice to the fact that this is no longer the case (which was not sufficiently clear in the old situation). Arnoutf (talk) 18:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Rambling Rambler B. And whoever doesn't wants more discussions is encouraging oversimplifications, laziness and lack of depth and context here. Brazil, for example, was on the article and now there is no single mention on it. The article can change and twist 180° and you cannot even find the discussions that simply decided that. There's much to be done here, and i am not talking about this bad article, i am mentioning Wikipedia as a whole. 2804:389:C2B5:7FDD:7942:78B1:A0A4:B04E (talk) 00:54, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Result & Implementation
I think this has been left open long enough at this point, think it's clear Option B would be preferable. I'm therefore proposing that a reduced Japan section that only deals with superpower speculation and that's it be included under a section called "Formerly Considered", and a move of the article to the title of "List of polities considered potential superpowers" given that better defines the purpose of the article. If no objection I'll look to implement this in a few days time.Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds fair (update - 26 feb ... to restructure the Japan part... but the suggestion to change the title move it - was never part of the 3 proposed actions above (except for your comment) and was not discussed in depth by all). To avoid editing-conflict I would strongly urge you to start with the previous section on Japan which does provide a lot of the arguments from the past. (PS I agree that the recent addition of Germany was not substantiated by good sourcing and more original synthesis than anything else - so support removal of that). Arnoutf (talk) 15:13, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's fine as it is but just without the stuff about today in there. There was a weird tone before of how it was written like it was currently a potential superpower which was just odd. Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- There is no consensus for moving the article. In fact, the only editor supporting such a move seems to be you. intforce (talk) 19:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- ? This thread is not about a move so I don't understand above comment. The discussion is instead about how to organise the structure of the current article in relation to the placement/inclusion of Japan. Arnoutf (talk) 21:14, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
- Rambling Rambler is specifically proposing moving the article to "List of polities considered potential superpowers", in the comment you replied to. intforce (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- Ah sorry missed that. Read to quickly assuming the focus was on the three proposed direction (A, B, and C) as listed at the top, and only elements brought up by multiple editors (not only Rambling Rambler who casually mentioned a move idea) would be taken forward. I updated my initial response.
- I stick to my suggestion that it seems fair to restructure the Japan part. But moving the article title seems weird to me indeed (and I would oppose that), as a list is generally just that, a list with extremely limited discussion. This article provide in depth discussion of the idea of potential superpower and each candidate so really not a list at all. Also in my view a article subjected to fierce discussion like this one should have move discussion following Wikipedia:Requested moves which was definitely not implemented here. Arnoutf (talk) 13:17, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- If people would prefer a formal discussion I'm happy to have that as a second aspect separate to it. My only concern is that both the title and lead currently confuse the issue in how the article is focused on the present. Under the title "potential superpower" Japan doesn't really fit in because it's not a potential superpower. If we want to formalise that it covers those formerly considered potential superpowers, then I don't see how that really makes sense without moving the article to a new title that is more time-neutral (i.e. doesn't imply the present tense). Rambling Rambler (talk) 16:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
- If Japan is going to be re-added, it can go under a subsection with a title of "Former potential superpower" or something else similar. Based on the above thread, none of the involved editors seem to want to change the name of the article. It doesn't have to be that complicated folks. Archives908 (talk) 17:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
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