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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move reviewafter discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. Participation is low, but the !opposes, also in the bare majority, refer to policy (WP:COMMONNAME), and no one else does. I am obligated to weigh policy in determining consensus as per WP:DETCON. Accordingly, this article is not moved. (non-admin closure) Iseult Δx talk to me 07:07, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
– I see that a lot of Princesses of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies who were born or lived when the Kingdom of Two Sicilies still existed had their article named with formula (Princess) Name of the Two Sicilies, like Maria Christina of the Two Sicilies, Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies, Princess Maria Carolina of the Two Sicilies (born 1856). I also see the same phenomenon for the Princesses of Parma, those who were born when the Duchy of Parma were still exist were called Princess Name of Parma, like Princess Isabella of Parma, Maria Luisa of Parma, those who were born when the Duchy was no longer exist were called of Bourbon-Parma, like Zita of Bourbon-Parma. SO I want to change the article's name of those princesses. Oohlala8195 (talk) 14:22, 27 January 2026 (UTC) —Relisting.TarnishedPathtalk 05:05, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
Survey
Comment Support as nominator. Oohlala8195 (talk) 14:22, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
Support I always viewed the current title (for Maria Carolina of the Two Sicilies, Duchess of Berry) as excessive, and these titles (at least the Duchess of Berry) are indeed incorrect. I was also considering starting a discussion on this, just didn't know how. Although, I would suggest moving to Marie Caroline instead of Maria Carolina. OliviaRigby (talk) 04:02, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
Strong oppose. As I said twice before in the last two requested moves, article titles should be recognisable. They should use common names as found in reliable English-language sources. They should not use names that have been made up by wikipedia. "Maria Carolina of the Two Sicilies, Duchess of Berry" is completely unknown outside of wikipedia and its mirrors. At least the current title is known . Celia Homeford (talk) 13:03, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
@Celia Homeford may I ask that your opposition apply only for Maria Carolina? Oohlala8195 (talk) 04:33, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
Oppose as proposed per CH. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:56, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
Comment: Bourbon-Two Sicilies is more of a family branch of a "House" than a nation-state. The nation-state was the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, not the Kingdom of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. No one is called a King of Windsor, although they may be a King of England that is a member of the House of Windsor. Is it really appropriate to say someone is "John Smith of Bourbon-Two Sicilies"? Is that a proper title? Can someone be "Richard of Windsor"? I don't see any article titles like that, although I did find reference to an "Edward of WindsorEdward of Windsor" as a redirect. — BarrelProof (talk) 01:19, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
Comment. I'd just like the title to be correct, seeing that it is what I'm pretty sure we're supposed to be doing. The current title would serve well as a redirect, just as there is one to George II of the United Kingdom, because it is incorrect. If there is that much opposition to it, though, the current title is very much okay, for the reasons @Celia Homeford stated. As for the other one, Princess Maria Antonietta of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, it definitely needs to be moved, since her younger sister has the Two Sicilies name. These moves really should've had their own discussions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OliviaRigby (talk • contribs) 05:02, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
Comment. Not sure I'm replying in exactly the right place but I feel my thoughts on the original article are worth echoing.
First of all, the idea that the title of Marie-Caroline's article is common or recognizable in its current form is complete facetious, since all of her female siblings, married or otherwise, are referred to as “of the Two Sicilies”, not Bourbon-Two Sicilies. Or if not that, it would probably be most correct to refer to as “of Naples and Sicily” like Louis Philippe I’s wife Maria Amalia, since both of them were born before the kingdoms of Naples and Sicily were unified. The Bourbon-Two Sicilies designation is, like the Bourbon-Parma predicate, only used for members of the family who were born after the end of the Sicilian monarchy, which was extant for all but the final decade of the Duchess of Berry's life.
That aside, it is extremely unusual that her title by marriage, Duchess of Berry, is included in the header of her Wikipedia page at all. That might make sense if she was still alive, but this woman not only held other titles during her life time, but has been deceased for over 150 years. The title of her page sticks out like a sore thumb. It should just be “Princess Maria Carolina of Naples and Sicily” (or Marie-Caroline if the French version of her name is a necessity), which would line up with how other members of her family are referenced on Wikipedia and still keep her separate from the other Maria Carolina’s in her family since they are all titled as “of the Two Sicilies”, since they were all born in 1820 or later, which was 4 years after the creation of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Her title of Duchess of Berry should be included on the page itself, similarly to how Louis Philippe I’s wife Maria Amalia’s title of Duchess of Orléans is also included on her Wikipedia page, not in the title but in her wikibox as clarification that she held it before being Queen of the French.
Another good comparative example to my mind is Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's niece, Anne Bowes-Lyon. She was first Viscountess Anson and then Princess Anne of Denmark, both by marriage, and yet her Wikipedia page is title with only her first and last name. Maria Carolina also held two titles by marriage, Duchess of Berry and Duchess of Grazia. I'm not sure Maria is treated as some special exemption when it doesn't make any sense.
There also seems to be an element of self-fulfillment with a lot of online article simply taking this broken form of page title and applying it elsewhere, like on Pinterest and Google Arts and Culture. That's not Wikipedia drawing from other sources, that's other websites drawing from Wikipedia. Its circular, there's no beginning or end. It hardly serves as a valid argument for keeping a name that does not follow the format that this website and other members of the duchess's own family use. CanadianPrince (talk) 01:15, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
We use English language reliable sources to determine article names. The examples I gave were published before this page, or even wikipedia, existed and so cannot possibly be circular. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:11, 5 March 2026 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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