Talk:Tekoa (ancient town)

It seems to me that there ia a great overlap with Teqoa and Tekoa (Israeli settlement). Eg, the whole "Early modern period" paragraph seems to belong in Teqoa? Comments? Huldra (talk) 23:38, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

Someone has split off the Palestinian town to its own page Tuqu' and removed all the history and place it here at Teqoa (ancient town). I strongly object to this. Khirbet Teqoa is still part of modern Tuqu' and it remained inhabited, even if sparsely, before the Bedouin tribes settled kn Tuqu' itself in 1948. Tiamut (talk) 14:38, 25 December 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Tiamut

I noticed a discrepancy on the page. The Ottoman sijils clearly show a large drop in the Christian population between 1526 and 1596. Furthermore, the 17th-century accounts by Michael Nau claim that he met semi-nomadic Arabs from Beit Ta'mir and Tekoa, and that Tekoa itself was completely in ruins and uninhabited. Why does the page claim that "The majority of Teqoa's Christian inhabitants emigrated to Bethlehem in the 18th century" if the Christian population had already declined and disappeared long before that? Ta'amira (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Hi! I think that is based on the material from Pringle indicating the church was still is use in the 17th century. But it is possible Christians from the village went to live in Bethlehem earlier while continuing to use the church out of custom (there are churches near where I live in destroyed Palestinian villages that people still use for weddings and feasts). Tiamut (talk) 16:31, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Good catch, but that actually means the article is still off. If Pringle says the church was used in the 17th century, that still doesn't back up the article's claim that the inhabitants lived there and moved out in the 18th century. Ta'amira (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Let me look into the sources more closely. First thing I am noticing, is that in Guerin, he seems to mention the "Sarrasins" (Saracens, a word used previously for Bedouin Arabs) causing Christians of Thecua to leave in 1138 (p. 137) and take refuge in a cave in Adullam. Tiamut (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Here is my translation of Nau's accounts:

Thecua, which is a league and a half from there.

It appears from the ruins we saw there that it was once a considerable city. The most intact part is a Church found upon arrival, whose walls are still in fairly good condition; but the vaults have collapsed. I was told it was dedicated to St. Nicholas, and there is still a good old man in Bethlehem who saw it whole and served by several Priests of the Greek Rite.

​There were inhabitants and houses then; but today everything is overturned, and you see nothing but a confusion of stones, and collapsed and demolished walls. Ta'amira (talk) 17:07, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

I think the Christians mived to Bethlehem in the 16th century (per the census data shift) and kept visiting the church (Pringle says one told Fr Bagatti in the 1970s it was used in his lifetime too). I made this edit for now and will try to find a source specifying when this happened. Tiamut (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

That sounds good, thank you. I am working on a draft for the Ta'amireh article, and I will need you to check it. Ta'amira (talk) 17:17, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Would be honoured to. Just ping me anytime. Tiamut (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Guerin also says (published 1868) the church was nearly completely in ruins, as well as many houses. Tiamut (talk) Tiamut (talk) 16:58, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

On a separate note @Ta'amira what do you think about merging this article with Tuqu'? I think its a POVFORK and both the ancient village and modern municipality running it belong together, but I would like to hear your opinion, as you know them better than me. Tiamut (talk) 17:16, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

The ancient Tuqu is part of modern Tuqu; I don’t know why they are treated as separate. Ottoman sijils clearly show that it was inhabited, and they even list the names of people from there, which usually end with al-Tuqu‘i.

Nau’s account also shows that the Taʿāmirah (even though not explicitly mentioned, but easily understood if you know the historical context—he calls them just “Arabs”) were living across Bayt Tamār and Tuqu, with the chief of those Arabs being from the latter.

An Ottoman sijil from 13/7/1549 shows that the Taʿāmirah had control over or were associated with the Firdays (Herodium) farm near Bayt Lahm. Another sijil from 30/4/1549 mentions an individual associated with Tuqu‘, and there are also other sijils that mention people linked to Tuqu‘.

During the 1800s, Tuqu is explicitly mentioned as part of Taʿāmirah lands; they camped around the ruins and some even lived in its caves.

There should not be two separate pages at all. Ta'amira (talk) 17:36, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree. I think @User:Huldra was the first to suggest so too (in the section at the top of this page). In the renaming proposal above, I tried to raise a merger, but it was not the appropriate place (and there were now banned sockpuppets involved creating this article who spoke out against. Perhaps I will open a formal merge request and notify legit accounts who commented in the rename above about it to be fair to all. Tiamut (talk) 17:43, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Wonderinf if the fact that the article was created by a now banned sockpuppet even requires a formal merge request actually. We could just go ahead and do it, given it was created illegitimately. Tiamut (talk) 17:46, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure how the rules work for sockpuppet page creations. Ta'amira (talk) 17:55, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

I am starting to merge historical info from there to here, as it should be included here anyway. Will try to understand how to make the merge formally afterward. Tiamut (talk) 18:21, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

I think it is absurd to have, say the story about the baptismal font, partly here, and partly in the modern town. Everything about the Ottoman period should undoubtedly be in the "modern" town; the 1596 defter identifies it, etc, etc, Huldra (talk) 20:45, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

PS: The 1596 data, HA p.114, identifies it at Palestine grid 170/115; it is completely wrong to have it here, Huldra (talk) 20:51, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

I agree. This page is a POVFORK that basically erases the continuity between the Palestinian municipality that governs both the modern town and still populated ancient site. Tiamut (talk) 21:00, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Give me another day to finish integrating information from here to there. Then we can begin removing stuff from here and/or make a formal merge request. Tiamut (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

Feel free to do some integrating of the Ottoman sections tonight and delete it from here if you like. I have to go to sleep now. Goodnight! Tiamut (talk) 21:15, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

You can always WP:BOLDLY merge the articles. If this is contested (i.e. by reverting the merge), then the proper forum would (unfortunately) be WP:AFD. Katzrockso (talk) 03:06, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

Agree to the merge. Zero^talk 03:54, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

I have basically finished now. Should we just redirect Tekoa (ancient town) to Tuqu' and undo this fork? Tiamut (talk) 11:15, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

I made the redirect to Tuqu'. Tiamut (talk) 15:15, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

User:StAnselm: I see you undid the redirect. Please explain here why, or I will undo you, thanks, Huldra (talk) 20:43, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

The consensus in the previous discussion was against a movemerge, and so it should have been nominated for merging per WP:AFD2. StAnselm (talk) 20:53, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

User:StAnselm: I see the request for Teqoa (ancient town) to Tekoa (ancient town). I see no discussion for merge, could you please find the link? Huldra (talk) 21:33, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

One editor !voted "merge" but that proposal did not gain any traction. StAnselm (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

As evident above, and explained below, there are five editors in favor of a merge, and no opposition expressed until your revert. Are you contesting the merge yourself then? And on what basis? Because if this article is going to stay up, it needs several tags on the dubious information therein and deletions/cleanup. Tiamut (talk) 04:43, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

The Pringle 1998 ref is to a location on Pal.grid 1701.1157, clearly not Tekoa (ancient town) (which is located at 164/114). Same for the Hütteroth & Abdulfattah 1977-reference, (I haven't checked the other refs, yet) Huldra (talk) 21:46, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

And Pringle, 1997 is located at 1702.1159, also clearly not this article. And Ellenblum, p 136 refers to pal.grid 170/11542.

User:StAnselm can you please tell me which, (if any), of the references used in this article actually identifies it as located at Palestine grid 164/114? Huldra (talk) 22:07, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

@Huldra: I don't think you know how to propose a merge. StAnselm (talk) 22:19, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

@StAnselm: I believe you don't need to have a formal merge, iff there are no argument against it. And I cannot see that there is/has been. Please point them out to me, thank you, Huldra (talk) 22:29, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

A formal discussion is not needed if there is apparent consensus, like it says at WP:MERGE. On this page can be seen five people writing in favor of a merge and only StAnselm's complaint after the fact. Zero^talk 03:13, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

To editor Huldra: To editor Tiamut: The grid coords are screwed up. 164/114 is where Beit Fajar is. It is not the location of Kh. Tuqu, which is at 170/115. The lat/long are correct, but over-precise. Zero^talk 03:08, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

There are multiple factual errors in this article which I did not correct because the correct information is in Tuqu', its merge target. Tiamut (talk) 04:46, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that. User:StAnselm: unless you (or someone else) do not come up with some real arguments against merge in the very nearest future, I will undo your edit, Huldra (talk) 20:30, 13 June 2026 (UTC)