User talk:Sillyfolkboy

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Elaine Van Blunk

Information icon Hello, I'm Joseph2302. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Elaine Van Blunk, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:06, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

@Joseph2302: I've added citations for that material now. I didn't add any inline citations initially as I didn't think it was material likely to be challenged (which is the standard of Wikipedia:Verifiability). Obviously I stand corrected on that point! Thanks for writing the article SFB 11:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Any Recommendation ?

Hi Sillyfolkboy From PlainDonut Would you have any potential recommendation for a USER in the USA to assist in writing articles on USA Masters Athletics (Track and Field) ? Appreciate your input. PlainDonut (talk) 20:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@PlainDonut: Hi there and pleased to meet you! I think you've made a very good start with Masters So Cal Track and Field Championship, and there are plenty more articles left to write in the masters space. In terms of getting to grips with editing, I find it very useful to check out existing articles and borrow their layout and style, particularly things like how to add tables, infoboxes, categories etc.
It is worth bearing in mind that there are Wikipedia:Notability criteria to meet. The knowledge you have on more local and low level parts of the sport may be deemed unsuitable for inclusion by other people, so it helps to focus on the better known aspects of the sport first. In terms of recommendations for what you could do next, we don't yet have an article on the USATF Masters Outdoor Championships. The article on World Masters Athletics Championships is a good example of an existing article that you can borrow the style from.
Just to let you know, we have a project page for people interested in writing about track and field at Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics. The talk page is quite a good forum for asking questions and getting feedback or assistance. Let me know how you get on SFB 21:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply Sillyfolkboy From PlainDonut We had four "false starts" (see list below) that we would like a more polished Wiki-article-writer to assist. The earlier Wiki reviews stated not Encyclopdic enough and not Notable enough. The Encyclopdic would require a better writer to assist with; the Notable we could add info on Olympians that have competed at these meets, and links to several newspaper articles. [EverbodyWiki] USA National Masters Outdoor Track and Field Championship: [EverbodyWiki] [EverbodyWiki] USA National Masters Indoor Track and Field Championship: [EverbodyWiki] [EverbodyWiki] Masters West Region Track and Field Championship: [EverbodyWiki] [EverbodyWiki] USATF Southern California Association: [EverbodyWiki]

Regards, PlainDonut PlainDonut (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Does the mention of Olympian (such as on the Masters So Cal Track and Field Championship help with creating other similar articles ? Regards, PlainDonut PlainDonut (talk) 22:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@PlainDonut: Ah... I see you have been down this avenue already! The regional meet possibly doesn't pass notability, but I think it was the wrong decision to treat the national competitions the same as the regionals – the national championships articles contained sources showing notability, which were not mentioned in the discussion. The deletion discussion in October didn't get attention from subject matter experts, for whom the notability of the 50+ years of the USATF Masters Championships is kind of obvious.
@Vanamonde93: can we still take you up on that offer to restore the articles to draft space? There is a solid case for general notability for the national level events. The regional level material could also be used as part of a broad article on Masters track and field in the United States, another topic with clear notability. Thanks SFB 23:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
@Sillyfolkboy: I'm usually willing to provide a draftspace copy, but I need to know what article you're talking about...Vanamonde (Talk) 23:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
@Vanamonde93: Apologies - these are the relevant deleted articles:
  • Masters West Region Track and Field Championship
  • USA National Masters Outdoor Track and Field Championship
  • USATF Southern California Association
  • USA National Masters Indoor Track and Field Championship
Thanks! SFB 00:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
No worries. Here you go: , , , . Please note that the notability concerns should be substantially addressed, with the help of sources and information that weren't considered at AfD, before these are moved to mainspace again. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you both from PlainDonut I can add a list of Olympians, and some Newspaper citations. But I assume that additional cleanup might be needed.

https://en.everybodywiki.com/USA_National_Masters_Outdoor_Track_and_Field_Championship

https://en.everybodywiki.com/USA_National_Masters_Indoor_Track_and_Field_Championship

https://en.everybodywiki.com/Masters_West_Region_Track_and_Field_Championship

https://en.everybodywiki.com/USATF_Southern_California_Association

Your thoughts are appreciated. Regards, PlainDonut PlainDonut (talk) 02:26, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Question: Next steps from my end ? PlainDonut (talk) 02:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@PlainDonut: I've updated the National Outdoors article with a lead section in the usual style and have added some extra citations from mainstream outlets. If you can find any further newspaper citations etc then that will help prove notability. You can continue to work on the article at Draft:USATF Masters Outdoor Championships.
Do you want to have a go at putting the list of meets into a table format? The style used at USA Outdoor Track and Field Championships#Editions is a good one to copy from. For each row of the table you have to precede it with a pipe and a dash |- then separate out the info for each of the columns with two pipes ||
If you want to add a list of Olympians who have taken part at the meet then that would be great too. I recommend doing that in a bulleted list, simply put each linked athlete name with a * at the start of each line.
In terms of formatting advice, references should go at the end of a sentence, after the period. You can look at the references I've added to the article as an example of the usual referencing style. The Help:Cheatsheet page is also really useful as a reminder of how the wikicode works. Let me know if you have any trouble and I can advise. SFB 17:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
@Sillyfolkboy:

Hi Sillyfolkboy from PlainDonut Thank you. I will be updating.

Question: If I find some "Newspapers Reviews" about the meets ... does something like I did in the following draft work for this Masters Outdoor Championship Meets as well ? See "Reviews" on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Spalding_Athletic_Library_(2) Regards, PlainDonut PlainDonut (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)


@Sillyfolkboy:

Hi Sillyfolkboy from PlainDonut Many updates completed. Recommended next steps ? PlainDonut (talk) 06:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

USA Outdoor Article done

@Sillyfolkboy:

Hi Sillyfolkboy from PlainDonut 1. Many updates completed on the USATF Masters Outdoor Championship draft/article. Recommended next steps ? 2. Separately I have begun compiling additional items (and creating a Years / Location table) for the USATF Masters Indoor Championship which would be a separate future-draft-article. Indoor will include lists of Olympians, NFL athletes, and age-100+ athletes.

Please advise. Regards, PlainDonut PlainDonut (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@PlainDonut: Good job on the clean up and expansion! I've done some further formatting and condensed some of the sections together to avoid overly short ones. Note how I've reworked the material in Newspaper Quotes into a Media coverage section instead. It's better to summarise how the media have responded, rather than share just the quotes. I've moved the article back into mainspace at USATF Masters Outdoor Championships as I feel this is more than ready.
Draft:USATF Masters Indoor Championships is now available too to work on in the draft space. I suggest you work on that one next, using the outdoor article as a model to follow.
Note that I've spun out some of the more general masters info ("Other Masters Track and Field Competitions" section and the list of external links) to Draft:Masters track and field in the United States. That will be a good high level article to gather coverage of the history and competitions of masters track in the U.S. once you've finished up with the indoor championship. Keep it up! SFB 21:52, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
@Sillyfolkboy:

Very cool. Thank you. PlainDonut (talk) 22:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sillyfolkboy:

Hi Sillyfolkboy from PlainDonut. The "Draft:USATF Masters Indoor Championships" has been updated and uploaded. Would you have time to review ? Thank you, PlainDonut. PlainDonut (talk) 01:54, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@PlainDonut: Just did some extra formatting clean up, added a few more media citations, and have now moved to mainspace at USATF Masters Indoor Championships. Good work! It's worth having a think about what you can do next. If you can locate any info on the most successful athletes per event or the championship records (like we've gathered at USA Outdoor Track and Field Championships) that would be useful to add to these articles.
As I mentioned before, there is scope for a broad article on Draft:Masters track and field in the United States, covering the history and what competitions there are etc. I can see from the USATF website that there are plenty of other US masters championships competitions that haven't been noted on Wikipedia yet. I'm not sure if the other competitions have sufficient notability for their own articles (possibly the cross country one does?), so it could be good to summarize them on the broad-scope article first. We don't have any national-level articles on masters track and field yet, but Athletics in Australia is a decent example of what that kind of article could look like. You could also include things like a list of American winners at the World Masters Athletics Championships for example.
Another possibility would be something like Draft:List of centenarian masters track and field athletes, as I imagine there are only a limited number of people who compete in that age group? Let me know if you want to bounce any ideas off me SFB 19:36, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
@Sillyfolkboy:

Hi Sillyfolkboy from PlainDonut. THANK YOU. This week I have also been updating several other Wiki articles. Masters So Cal Track and Field Championship, National Association of Amateur Athletes of America, and Draft:Spalding Athletic Library (2). Let me ponder (consider) next steps. Thank you again. PlainDonut. PlainDonut (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Lebogang Phalula

Hi there, I've been looking into this change that was made recently to Lebogang Phalula. I must say I didn't realise it when writing the article but it appears they're twin sisters according to sources, see e.g., https://www.news24.com/news24/Archives/City-Press/Phalula-twins-double-trouble-20150429 and https://www.iol.co.za/sport/athletics/phalula-twins-aim-for-tokyo-via-cape-town-31817352. Would it be ok if I undo your change and check both articles so that the information is correct in both? Thanks, Simeon (talk) 00:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Alternatively, it could become an article about the Phalula sisters but they do both appear notable for their own article. - Simeon (talk) 00:36, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
@Simeon: Good spot! I was too hasty to draw a conclusion there! I've reverted the merge here and on Wikidata then added the twin info. Thanks for the heads up! SFB 13:39, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks, it's looking good! Thanks also for your other work on adding navigation templates to other articles that I happen to have on my watchlist :) - Simeon (talk) 13:47, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
@Simeon: Seems I wasn't the only person to confuse the sisters, World Athletics listed both sisters' 2006 Commonwealth Games results under Lebogang. I've advised them of the error now. We also had mixed up links here in some articles so I've fixed that too (e.g.).
Thanks for all your article creation work! I'm updating the last bits of international and national champion data from the GBR Athletics website at the moment, hence the flurry of new incoming links.
It has shown me that we need to develop better ways to store champion and medallist data because there is a need to repeat it in multiple locations. Ideally we should be able to add a piece of data somewhere, then draw upon it to populate, for example, Template:Japan Championships in Athletics women's 100 metres champions, List of Japan Championships in Athletics winners (women) and List of 100 metres national champions (women) (and perhaps even down to the edition level at 2020 Japan Championships in Athletics, international competition tables on biographies, and even new sub-topics like 2020 in the 100 metres). There are ways to achieve that using Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons tabular data, but I'm not 100% sure on the best approach yet. If we migrate data there, we will be able share our efforts across languages too! SFB 14:32, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that! It's a long way away but I'm hoping at at least one of the components in Abstract Wikipedia can be used in the future for that purpose. A lot of that project seems to be focused on article creation but it seems we should also be able to generate parts of articles easily. For medals of an athlete, we should be able to generate the infobox and a table within the article using, say, {{ShowAthleteMedals|Q123123123}} where `Q123123123` is the athlete's Wikidata item. It should be similar for generating a navigation template for national championships. Any updates in Wikidata would then be reflected both in navigation templates and athlete biographies in any Wikipedia project that is tied to Wikidata :) - Simeon (talk) 14:46, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

@Simeon: Honestly, the technical structure is already there without Abstract Wikipedia. For example, see how the cycling project at French Wikipedia already leverages Wikidata to populate fr:Tour d'Espagne 2019 using fr:Module:Cycling race. My primary concerns are around how we implement these things in a way that allows people to easily update Wikidata, and that has a robust data structure. The last thing I want to see is (a) people excluded from adding data, and (b) a messed up initial data structure that we have to constantly build workarounds for. The latter point takes up basically 50% of my time professionally so there are huge, long-term effects if we get that wrong! I could probably draft some code to do the medal stuff, but already that raises the question of whether we want medal data to be stored distinctly from result data... SFB 15:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)


American Centenarians that have competed in Masters Track and Field

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Thanks for your edit to Fiscal council in March :) Perhaps you'd like to join us at the WikiProject Taxation. E.g. Minimum corporate tax rate needs expansion following recent ample news coverage --Trimton (talk) 21:17, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

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